One of the principles that got me a long way in life is to never give up even if the beginning is hard.
Another one is that I rather jump over one foot hurdles than over 3 foot hurdles if there is no additional benefit.
I generally agree with that adage too.
I guess our discussion has reduced to the question what is easier to implement for a beginner. I would argue for the majority of people in the PU community it is the indirect-direct approach.
First disagreement. For me, it's not so much about which approach is "the easiest."
If I had to pick just ONE or TWO FACTORS that most contributes to me favoring direct vs indirect, it would the issue of 1) Time and 2) Manipulation.
I'm not in favor of any approach that, in the long-run, has a much higher potential for me to end up wasting time and/or money pursuing a woman that may not be genuinely interested in me.
Secondly, I don't like seducing women by lying to them, misleading them, and/or emotionally manipulating them. For example, I don't like to get women into bed by making them THINK that there is a possibility of a long-term monogamous relationship when in reality, I know for a 100% fact that all I want is a weekend or two of casual sex.
Indirect approaches can be fine for many, but my biggest gripe ... based on my past experiences and observations ... is that indirect has a much higher potential to cause guys to waste time, waste money and end up angry, frustrated and bitter.
On the other hand, if you have natural tendency to M1 behaviour then probably M1. However, indirect-direct is more universally applicable as it is socially more acceptable.
Just like I don't look at direct VS indirect as an issue of "easy" vs "hard," similarly, I don't look at the value of direct vs indirect as an issue of what is "socially acceptable" vs "unconventional."
Taking it a step further, I have found that you get more women's pussies wet by being bold and unconventional than you do by exhibiting behavior that is basic, conventional and socially acceptable. Women themselves have even told me that. I rarely, if ever, try to be 'socially acceptable.'
At an extreme, how do you go M1 on a widow at her husbands funeral or on a very conservative girl that is standing next to her very conservative and massive brother at a bus stop?
I wouldn't even approach a woman in an indirect manner if I were attending a funeral for her recent husband. That is just tacky. Why any man would approach any woman who just lost her husband in either a direct manner or an indirect manner is beyond me.
As far as the second scenario, I've done that MANY times. I've hit on women when they've been with their sisters, mothers, fathers, and brothers. I actually once told a woman TO HER FACE that I was going to fuck her daughter (talk about BIG BALLS). I only had one contentious conversation with a woman's brother, and that was in the late 90s when I was living in Los Angeles. A woman's brother came to me and asked me why I was talking to his sister in such an XXX-rated manner. I said, "because she liked it."
But I must clarify: You don't have to be X-rated with women in order to be Mode One. You can use PG-13 language and still be Mode One / Direct.
Very hard to do unless you are happy to inflict some serious physical pain ;-) But you can go indirect-direct for sure in both situations.
I disagree. You can go direct in both situations, although I would not recommend approaching women in Scenario #1 (the funeral). Again, hitting on women at a funeral ... particularly, their husband's funeral ... is just tacky.
Look I am not arguing for or against one or the other. They both come with advantages and disadvantages.
I agree with that. Both the direct style and indirect style have their own set of advantages & benefits, and their own set of disadvantages & detriments.My evaluation:General Benefits of Direct Approaches
- You're able to have your interests reciprocated quicker than you would with an indirect approach
- You prevent women from wasting your time if they are not truly interested in you
- You tend to bring out a woman's "inner kinky freak" side much quicker
- You don't have to resort to 'wining & dining' a woman in order to try to "impress" her
- You tend to be perceived by women as a man who has "big balls" and is ultra-confidentGeneral Benefits of Indirect Approaches
- If you are rejected, you won't be rejected as quickly, as abruptly, and/or as harshly
- You give a woman the opportunity to examine and evaluate many aspects of your personality, such as your intelligence, your sense of humor & wit, etc., which can potentially help you if you are not that physically attractive
- You avoid antagonistic and/or contentious responses
- You tend to be perceived as "nice," "sweet," well-mannered
- You tend to generally avoid activating a woman's "Anti-Slut Defenses," at least initially anywayGeneral Drawbacks of Direct Approaches
- If a woman is not interested in you, she's going to reject you in a much more abrupt manner which could negatively affect those with sensitive egos
- If a woman perceives you as "too straightforward" and/or "too provocative," you run the risk of being harshly criticized and labeled a "jerk" or an "asshole"; This could have a negative affect on you if you have thin skin or a sensitive ego
- If your interest is strictly casual sex, you tend to activate a woman's "Anti-Slut Defenses" quicker
- Women with manipulative tendencies might try to "make a scene" with you in public out of frustration
- Direct Approaches are sometimes harder to execute when a woman is surrounded by two or more people or in massive group situationsGeneral Drawbacks of Indirect Approaches
- More often than not, you end up engaging in a high degree of time-wasting "fluff talk" and "small talk" prior to finding out if a woman is genuinely interested in you or not interested in you
- Many times, you end up going out on "dates" with women who are not really interested in you, and spending money unnecessarily
- You tend to more frequently open yourself up to being misled and having your time wasted by "cock teaser" types, "attention whore" types and "gold digger" types
- You don't tend to be perceived as being as confident or as bold as a guy who uses direct approaches; Women tend to perceive you as a more passive, "beat-around-the-bush" type
- When you employ an indirect approach, but things don't turn out the way you wanted them to (i.e., you didn't end up sleeping with the woman), you tend to feel more angry, frustrated, and bitter
The very last point above is one of the main reasons why I favor direct approaches. I told Sasha and others in London: Indirect is cool when I successfully get a woman in bed .... but where I can see the difference is when I get rejected, or don't get the results I wanted or expected.
When I'm Mode One / Direct, and I get rejected, I am able to quickly forget about it. It doesn't faze me at all. And probably 90% of my 'Mode One' readers have said the same thing.
When I've been Mode Two and/or Mode Three (Indirect) with women, and I get rejected, I tend to feel very angry ... very frustrated .... very bitter and resentful ... and very regretful. Mainly because I usually ended up wasting more time and/or money than I wanted to.
I think point 1) and point 2) have to eventually be overcome by anybody who is playing this game, whether M1 or indirect-direct. I don't think that Yad gives a rats ass what the hot Russian mother thinks when he is gaming her daughter in front of her eyes. If he did he wouldn't be able to do it.
I don't use terms like "gaming her." I'm Mode One because I don't like to play head games with women. I just like to lay my desires and interests on the table and either have them reciprocated or rejected.
The process you follow is your choice. Make sure you meet women and get what you want though.
You see her standing at the bar leaning against a corner. Her body is amazing and you can feel the attraction directly. You know you want her badly. Your body doesn't really let your brain think it forces you to go over and talk to her. After a very short introduction you tell her that she is by far the sexiest girl in the bar and that you choose her for tonight because she turns you on. She is irritated but interested. She says something but it doesn't really matter because you already know what you want. You don't ask, but simply grab her hand and tell her that the two of you are going for a drink at the bar. She says wait, but you simply force it by pulling her. She complies and by now her head is spinning because you were so direct with her. She has made up her mind by now. At the bar you have a shot and tell her again that you will have to hit on her because it is your job. She smiles and you know you are in. You have a shot and tell her: just lick the salt off your skin, put the tequilla in your mouth and swallow. She gets it straight away. You go on the dance floor. Dance for 1 min kiss and start making out. It is on so you tell her let's go. She complies and as soon as you are in the cab it is game over.
Interesting description, but that would not be my version of "direct." For example, having the drink at the bar would be unnecessary for me.
If I were in a bar, I would just walk up to a woman and say, "I find you very hot. Very attractive. I think you and I should get out of here and go back to my place so I can determine if you and I have as much sexual chemistry as I think we will ..." If she start getting theatrical, I know I have her. If she calmly says, "no thank you" or "I'm married," I leave her alone.
How much time did I just spend? 2 minutes? 3 minutes? I don't like for any conversation with a woman to last more than roughly 5-10 minutes unless I know for a 100% fact that the woman is definitely interested in sharing my company. Otherwise, I want the conversation ended.
Why would the woman be "irritated?" I find that most women are turned on by direct approaches. Only women with manipulative tendencies tend to get irritated and frustrated by a direct approach.
Do you know that feeling when you sit with a girl on a day 2 in a bar. You have not stated explicitly your interest in her, yet she completely knows it is on. Why else would you have approached her in the street like that. It is like some magical feeling that is between the two of you. When you look into her eyes she knows you are here for one thing. You have her at the point where you slowly took away your investment and she starts telling you how great she is and how great it is to go out with you and that she truly feels that connection to you. The more she does it the more you retreat and the more she is trying to pull you back in as you keep rewarding her for her efforts. Finally, you have her at the point where she starts stearing the topic towards sex and starts sticking out her titts and asks if you like her shoes just to be able to show you her legs wrapped in tights. You touch her thighs and she knows it is not a coincidence. Her whole body language changes to portray her female features in the most beautiful way. From the moment you met her till now you have managed to create this beautiful atmosphere between the two of you that she has wanted for for such a long time. She is graving for you to make a move even though you have not said one serious word about you getting with her tonight. You suggest that you go back to your place to watch your cat do backflips and a last glass of wine. She smiles and you add: but you can't stay long. I have to get up tomorrow. You take it away. Actually, why don't we do it another day. She says: No, I actually have to wait for my train, so let's have a quick glass of wine at your place. I actually have to work too tomorrow. You get to your flat and you show her the cat ;-)
I'll say this: Indirect is cool if a) you don't mind investing some time and/or money, and b) if after investing that time and/or money, you don't mind getting rejected or cock-teased (and then rejected).
If you're cool with those two things .... indirect is fine.
The main people who should stay away from indirect are those who....
- Don't like to waste time conversing with women who are not really interested in them;
- Don't like to spend money treating women to free lunches, free dinners or free movies before they know for a fact that the woman is genuinely interested;
- Like for a woman to tell them upfront and straightforwardly that they don't really have any interest, as opposed to engaging in 'manipulative head games' prior to rejecting you
The main guys who should stay away from a direct approach are those who....
- Can't handle being rejected too quickly, too abruptly, or too harshly
- Don't like to have women 'make a scene' with them, especially in front of others
- Don't like to be called derogatory names, such as "jerk" or "asshole" or "cad"